Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 09:57:55 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <28v803$8s8@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds In article <1993Oct6.125749.6739@ned.cray.com> tds@eschi.cray.com (Timothy Sirianni {x66452 CF/DEV}) writes: >Well, the pull was quite manageable, but what happened was: when the kite >was flying in the power zone, the bottom spreaders would slip down the leading >edge, and the kite would very noticeably distort. The leading edge and the >batten on each side would move about 6" closer together. If you look at most stunt kites, you'll see what's usually referred to as a "stop" glued on the leading edge below (or occasionally above, depending on the kite) each of the spreaders. You also see them above the t-fitting on a dart-shaped kite. (that stops the t-fitting from ripping the sail during a nose-first crash landing) The Hawaiian should be able to handle winds of at least 20 with no problems, but 30 is pushing it. If you're flying and a gust that big comes along, it might be a good idea to stay out of the center of the power zone. Usually the big problem with distortion is that a sort of fluttering in the wing tips really screws with the way the kite flies. If the frame bends a bit without other problems, it's just the kite dumping excess wind by flexing. This is more common in kites framed with fiberglass than graphite. In fact, the Mirage diamonds with solid fiberglass frames fly a *lot* better in gusty winds than the graphite kites because the kite flexes to dump air, maintaining a much steadier forward speed. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "When I look in the mirror, I see a little clearer/ | |SAFH Lite [tm] | I am what I am and you are you too./ Do you like | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | what you see? Do you like yourself?" --N. Cherry | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 07:57:49 -1000 From: tds@eschi.cray.com (Timothy Sirianni {x66452 CF/DEV}) Message-Id: <1993Oct6.125749.6739@ned.cray.com> Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Subject: Hawaiian in high winds Hi all, I've got a question about my Hawaiian Chevron Team Kite. I've flown it maybe 4 or 5 times in moderate winds and it's a great flyer (and pulls like crazy :-), but the other day I flew it in what I'll call STRONG winds (20-25 with gusts to 30 MPH). I had moved the bridle clips up about 3/4" above the top of the mark on the line, in anticipation of some HUGE pull. Well, the pull was quite manageable, but what happened was: when the kite was flying in the power zone, the bottom spreaders would slip down the leading edge, and the kite would very noticeably distort. The leading edge and the batten on each side would move about 6" closer together. When I saw this, I landed the kite at once, and looked the kite over, but finding nothing "wrong" (in particular, the bridle lines were larks-headed around the vinyl tubing correctly), I launched again. Again, the kite would fold up when the pull was the strongest. I landed it again, and this time I could see that the dacron tape below the lower spreader attach point on the leading edge had become quite wrinkled from having the spreader pushing itself lower. Not wanting to damage it, I packed the kite in for the day. Now, for my question: Is this "folding up" OK? If not, what was I doing wrong? Was the wind too high? Was my bridle setting foolish? Should I glue some stops below the spreader attach point so that the vinyl can't slide down the leading edge spar? Thanks in advance for any insights I receive! Tim ============================================================================= Tim Sirianni, Cray Research, Inc., 900 Lowater Road, Chippewa Falls WI 54729 tds@cray.com, (715) 726-6452, Fax 726-6713 ============================================================================= -- ============================================================================= Tim Sirianni, Cray Research, Inc., 900 Lowater Road, Chippewa Falls WI 54729 Corporate Computing and Networks, tds@cray.com, (715) 726-6452, Fax 726-6713 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 22:53:58 -1000 From: puc@aber.ac.uk (Paul Crowley) Message-Id: <1993Oct7.085358.5734@aber.ac.uk> Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds In article <1993Oct6.125749.6739@ned.cray.com> tds@eschi.cray.com (Timothy Sirianni {x66452 CF/DEV}) writes: > >Hi all, > >I've got a question about my Hawaiian Chevron Team Kite. I've flown it >maybe 4 or 5 times in moderate winds and it's a great flyer (and pulls >like crazy :-), but the other day I flew it in what I'll call STRONG winds >(20-25 with gusts to 30 MPH). I had moved the bridle clips up about 3/4" >above the top of the mark on the line, in anticipation of some HUGE pull. > >Well, the pull was quite manageable, but what happened was: when the kite >was flying in the power zone, the bottom spreaders would slip down the leading >edge, and the kite would very noticeably distort. The leading edge and the >batten on each side would move about 6" closer together. When I saw this, >I landed the kite at once, and looked the kite over, but finding nothing >"wrong" (in particular, the bridle lines were larks-headed around the >vinyl tubing correctly), I launched again. Again, the kite would fold up >when the pull was the strongest. I landed it again, and this time I >could see that the dacron tape below the lower spreader attach point on the >leading edge had become quite wrinkled from having the spreader pushing >itself lower. Not wanting to damage it, I packed the kite in for the day. > >Now, for my question: Is this "folding up" OK? If not, what was I doing >wrong? Was the wind too high? Was my bridle setting foolish? Should I >glue some stops below the spreader attach point so that the vinyl can't slide >down the leading edge spar? > > >Thanks in advance for any insights I receive! > >Ti I've seen a few of these TOTL deltas doing this. I cant fly my Spinoff in anything above around 15mph as the leading edge starts distorting about the joining ferrule. On these occasions, there is severe loss of steering control and no amount of bridle adjustment cures the problem. Perhaps they're just built that way but if anybody knows the answer, please post. Paul = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 03:23:25 -1000 From: sc5@prism.gatech.edu (CSEPLO,STEPHEN P) Message-Id: <115371@hydra.gatech.EDU> Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds In article <1993Oct6.125749.6739@ned.cray.com> tds@eschi.cray.com (Timothy Sirianni {x66452 CF/DEV}) writes: The slipage is normal and shouldn't hurt as long as you do not mind scrunching up the leading edge dacron. It is an old design and one from before stops where widely used. Actually, before any commercial kite used stops. The flight characteristics will be affected but it should be OK. Some might say that the movement is part of the design of the frame of the kite. Most ToTL products don't use stops. >Now, for my question: Is this "folding up" OK? If not, what was I doing >wrong? NO. > Was the wind too high? Was my bridle setting foolish? Ditto above. >Should I >glue some stops below the spreader attach point so that the vinyl can't slide >down the leading edge spar? That's the answer if you are concerned about the movement of the spreader. -- Steve Cseplo |A| The Mad Hata sc5@prism.gatech.edu |K| AKA Region 4 Director |A| "Hey, mon...Tako Kichi!" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 06:27:29 -1000 From: lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca (Larry Marshall) Message-Id: Organization: Canadian Forest Service - Petawawa National Forestry Institute Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds In <1993Oct7.085358.5734@aber.ac.uk> puc@aber.ac.uk (Paul Crowley) writes: >I've seen a few of these TOTL deltas doing this. I cant fly my Spinoff >in anything above around 15mph as the leading edge starts distorting about >the joining ferrule. On these occasions, there is severe loss of steering >control and no amount of bridle adjustment cures the problem. Perhaps >they're just built that way but if anybody knows the answer, please post. I don't have any answers but I've sure had my Spinoff in winds higher than this. Excepting the fact that it'll pull your arms out of your sockets, I've never had any problems with it. ---------- Larry Marshall lmarshal@pnfi.forestry.ca Forestry Canada (613) 589-2880 Petawawa National Forestry Institute (613) 589-2275 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 22:20:02 -1000 From: micha@ekpux3.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Michael Schneider) Message-Id: <29gdni$td@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds Paul Crowley (puc@aber.ac.uk) wrote: : : I've seen a few of these TOTL deltas doing this. I cant fly my Spinoff : in anything above around 15mph as the leading edge starts distorting about : the joining ferrule. On these occasions, there is severe loss of steering : control and no amount of bridle adjustment cures the problem. Perhaps : they're just built that way but if anybody knows the answer, please post. : second try: i have a selfmade spinoff clone with 8,9mm epoxyt spars. i glued some stops at the leading edges. the only problem in strong winds is to have a good stand even with my weight of >100kg. the curvature of the leading edges becomes very large but the steering control is really good. micha -- ================================================================== Michael Schneider Institut fuer Experimentelle Kernphysik der Universitaet Karlsruhe Engesserstr. 7(Physikhochhaus), 76128 Karlsruhe 1 micha@ekpux2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de | BD14@DKAUNI2.BITNET ================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 22:05:47 -1000 From: micha@ekpux3.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Michael Schneider) Message-Id: <29gcss$td@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds Paul Crowley (puc@aber.ac.uk) wrote: : In article <1993Oct6.125749.6739@ned.cray.com> tds@eschi.cray.com (Timothy Sirianni {x66452 CF/DEV}) writes: : > : >Hi all, : > : >I've got a question about my Hawaiian Chevron Team Kite. I've flown it : >maybe 4 or 5 times in moderate winds and it's a great flyer (and pulls : >like crazy :-), but the other day I flew it in what I'll call STRONG winds : >(20-25 with gusts to 30 MPH). I had moved the bridle clips up about 3/4" : >above the top of the mark on the line, in anticipation of some HUGE pull. : > : >Well, the pull was quite manageable, but what happened was: when the kite : >was flying in the power zone, the bottom spreaders would slip down the leading : >edge, and the kite would very noticeably distort. The leading edge and the : >batten on each side would move about 6" closer together. When I saw this, : >I landed the kite at once, and looked the kite over, but finding nothing : >"wrong" (in particular, the bridle lines were larks-headed around the : >vinyl tubing correctly), I launched again. Again, the kite would fold up : >when the pull was the strongest. I landed it again, and this time I : >could see that the dacron tape below the lower spreader attach point on the : >leading edge had become quite wrinkled from having the spreader pushing : >itself lower. Not wanting to damage it, I packed the kite in for the day. : > : >Now, for my question: Is this "folding up" OK? If not, what was I doing : >wrong? Was the wind too high? Was my bridle setting foolish? Should I : >glue some stops below the spreader attach point so that the vinyl can't slide : >down the leading edge spar? : > : > : >Thanks in advance for any insights I receive! : > : >Ti : : I've seen a few of these TOTL deltas doing this. I cant fly my Spinoff : in anything above around 15mph as the leading edge starts distorting about : the joining ferrule. On these occasions, there is severe loss of steering : control and no amount of bridle adjustment cures the problem. Perhaps : they're just built that way but if anybody knows the answer, please post. : : : : Paul : : -- ================================================================== Michael Schneider Institut fuer Experimentelle Kernphysik der Universitaet Karlsruhe Engesserstr. 7(Physikhochhaus), 76128 Karlsruhe 1 micha@ekpux2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de | BD14@DKAUNI2.BITNET ================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 04:28:29 -1000 From: david@camscan.co.uk (David Sansom) Message-Id: <13738.9310131428@bendix.camscan.co.uk> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Hawaiian in high winds > Paul Crowley (puc@aber.ac.uk) wrote: > : > : I've seen a few of these TOTL deltas doing this. I cant fly my Spinoff > : in anything above around 15mph as the leading edge starts distorting about > : the joining ferrule. On these occasions, there is severe loss of steering > : control and no amount of bridle adjustment cures the problem. Perhaps > : they're just built that way but if anybody knows the answer, please post. > : > second try: > i have a selfmade spinoff clone with 8,9mm epoxyt spars. i glued some > stops at the leading edges. the only problem in strong winds is to > have a good stand even with my weight of >100kg. > the curvature of the leading edges becomes very large but the steering > control is really good. I also have a home made spinoff, mine only has 6mm c/f spars and as you can imagine it bends a bit in high winds :-) I've had it flying in winds up to 12mph gusting to 15mph and had no problems with directional control (the kites anyway :-) Mine has no ferrule on the leading edge (ie its one piece) so it can flex quite evenly. Perhaps this distortion is helping the kite, taking some of the strength from the wind and hence keeping control. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Sansom (david@camscan.co.uk) ________|________ PPL(A) -(*)- C152/PA28 driver /!\ ...if it flies I love it ! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =